Atheism isn’t an Absence in belief

On 9/5/2010 2:49 PM, DanielSan wrote:
> On 9/5/2010 11:43 AM, Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>> On 9/4/2010 8:31 PM, DanielSan wrote:
>>> On 9/4/2010 5:10 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>> news:yqadnTqKzJckMB_RnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/4/2010 1:21 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>> news:4cmdneX4_qnpGh_RnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/4/2010 10:27 AM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>> news:j6idnQKLD5FMFRzRnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2010 4:39 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>> news:cIydnc_e4qSn_xzRnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2010 1:55 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:FNmdnQcEs7AtoRzRnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2010 6:44 AM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:EoSdnTLz__h_YeLRnZ2dnUVZ_g4AAAAA @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/2/2010 12:28 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:zNidnWXuLquIb-LRnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/2/2010 10:57 AM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:N96dncjMqrw2I- @&*$?%speakeasy.net">PRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/1/2010 12:30 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:a9- @&*$?%speakeasy.net">dnZ3Sc5wQCuPRnZ2dnUVZ_r0AAAAA @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/1/2010 6:25 AM, Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no power given to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to create or fund a FEDERAL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EDUCATION department
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agency or club or church or PAC or UNION or revue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board or classroom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other FEDERAL government power over education.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and here is the 10th amendment…. it tells you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that if the power isn’t delegated to the Federal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Government, the Federal government doesn’t have that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> power.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Amendment X
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The powers not delegated to the United States by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respectively,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or to the people.]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. There is. It is a power delegated to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Federal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Government
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the Constitution and, therefore, the 10th Amendment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not violated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Care to show the wording in the Constitution that says
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> federal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government has that power? I am curious just where you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’ve already done it. But I’ll do it once again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Article 1, Section 8:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Congress shall have Power–
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other Powers vested
>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this Constitution in the Government of the United
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States, or in
>>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Department or Officer thereof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmmmm, see the terms, “…make all laws which shall be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary
>>>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the foregoing powers…” and “..and all other powers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *vested* by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution…”. I am asking you to provide a cite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where those powers *vested* in the Consitution show that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they include a Department of Education or federal powers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the taxation for
>>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under the federal government.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Article I, section 8 delineates the powers that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> legislative branch has to pass statutes on. I don’t see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> education mentioned either as a specific or as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> derivative. If you do, please
>>>>>>>>>>>> present
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can’t find any Departments explicitly laid out in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where is the Department of Labor laid out in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution? Housing and Urban Development? Health and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Human Services? Transportation?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about officer level positions? EPA? US Mission to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the United Nations?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don’t see ANY of these listed explicitly in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, some of them are for powers listed in Article I,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> section 8. Education is not one of them. I am not saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the feds cannot address education. Indeed, there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason for them to do so,
>>>>>>>>>>>> however
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot find it in the Constitution. You said that it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there so
>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you help me find it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where is the Department of Housing and Urban Development?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don’t care. That isn’t the subject.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. Your statement was that education is an enumerated power
>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically delegated to the Feds. My opinion of HUD is juice
>>>>>>>>>>>> for another discussion. Let’s finish up with education first.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, let’s start with the other departments not specifically
>>>>>>>>>>> enumerated in the Constitution.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why? You can’t even support your stance on ONE department.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because you refuse to look at the support.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For what? Naming departments? I haven’t argued about that. My
>>>>>>>> argument is a simple one. Show me where education is an
>>>>>>>> *ENUMERATED* power of the federal government or and *ENUMERATED*
>>>>>>>> right of the citizenry. It is that simple. Keyword is
>>>>>>>> “enumerated”. You claimed it was, go for it and show me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s enumerated in Article 1, Section 8, where it says that the
>>>>>>> Congress can, with the Executive, create Departments and fund them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Damn, you are dumb or I poorly worded what I meant. I asked about
>>>>>> the education portion and you responded again to the part I didn’t
>>>>>> disagree with. I know that power of naming departments is there, but
>>>>>> that wasn’t the question. The question was that education were
>>>>>> education was an enumerated power of the federal government not that
>>>>>> they couldn’t name or form departments. Did you always have this
>>>>>> much trouble concentrating on subjects?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Show support
>>>>>>>>>> for your stance in how education is an enumerated right and then
>>>>>>>>>> we can continue. Don’t try to diffuse it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The text string does not appear in the Constitution.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is that what you want to hear?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, you made the claim that education was an enumerated right. I am
>>>>>>>> asking you to support your statement. I don’t wish to hear any
>>>>>>>> specific thing, I just wish for you to back up your statement. No
>>>>>>>> more, no less. Either you can or you can’t.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s implied.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then it isn’t enumerated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I say that they’re implied within Articles 1 and 2, just as the
>>>>>>>>>>> word “gun” is implied by the Second Amendment.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The word ‘arms’ is specifally mentioned in the 2A. Arms is a
>>>>>>>>>> synomym for ‘guns’.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But not all guns are arms. *smile*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Name one that isn’t. Do you need to see the legal definition of
>>>>>>>> ‘arms’ again?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure. When I worked in a grocery store, I was given a “price gun”
>>>>>>> to add little stickers to the merchandise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can accept that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The word education (or a synonym) is not mentioned in either
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> General Welfare clause or the enumerated powers listed in Section
>>>>>>>>>> 8.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Education is implied in the General Welfare clause.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agreed, it is implied but it is not “enumerated”.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It’s implied in an enumerated right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What enumerated right is that? Certainly not the General Welfare
>>>>>> Clause since that describes powers. Now, the term ‘general welfare’
>>>>>> is an inclusive term in the preamble to Article I. It is not an
>>>>>> enumerated power. It is a goal or a general term. To be enumerated
>>>>>> it must be specifically mentioned as a power granted to Congress.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fine. If you don’t believe it’s under the purview of “General
>>>>> Welfare”, then let’s look at the other portion of Article 1, Section
>>>>> 8:
>>>>>
>>>>> “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
>>>>> into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by
>>>>> this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
>>>>> Department or Officer thereof.”
>>>>>
>>>>> The “foregoing Powers” references various things such as roads,
>>>>> declaration of war, coin money, and such other things. It also
>>>>> references “general Welfare” but you think that education doesn’t fall
>>>>> in that container, so let’s leave that alone for now.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Congress has the authority to make ALL laws that shall be
>>>>> necessary and proper for carrying into execution of ALL OTHER POWERS
>>>>> VESTED IN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OR IN ANY DEPARTMENT OR
>>>>> OFFICER THEREOF.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yep, two words in particular jump out at me. “Vested” and
>>>> “Thereof”. I
>>>> covered them in another response to you.
>>>
>>> Guess I’m still missing the thing about education.
>>>
>>> Section 8 reads, to me, that the Congress can make all laws which shall
>>> be necessary and proper for carrying into execution any department or
>>> officer of the government of the United States.
>>
>> “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into
>> Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this
>> Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
>> Department or Officer thereof.”
>>
>> What foregoing power “of education” is vested there?
>> BY this constitution or department or Officer?
>
> Amendment 10.
>
>
>> *It’s NOT a power vested by this constitution*
>
> Yes, it does.
>

it was a power/Department created by congress.

>
>> The constitution doesn’t vest that power in the government of the united
>> states.
>>
>> The constitution doesn’t vest that power in any Department.
>>
>> The constitution doesn’t vest that power in any Officer.
>>
>
> Yes, it does.
>

NO… it gives power to congress to create a Department, a department
that can only function under the powers of the constitution.

Congress can’t create the power to torture terrorists, by creating a
*Department of torture* .

Torture like Education isn’t in the constitution.