Atheism isn’t an Absence in belief

On 9/4/2010 8:31 PM, DanielSan wrote:
> On 9/4/2010 5:10 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>> DanielSan wrote in
>> news:yqadnTqKzJckMB_RnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>
>>> On 9/4/2010 1:21 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>> news:4cmdneX4_qnpGh_RnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/4/2010 10:27 AM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>> news:j6idnQKLD5FMFRzRnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/3/2010 4:39 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>> news:cIydnc_e4qSn_xzRnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2010 1:55 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>> news:FNmdnQcEs7AtoRzRnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2010 6:44 AM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:EoSdnTLz__h_YeLRnZ2dnUVZ_g4AAAAA @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/2/2010 12:28 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:zNidnWXuLquIb-LRnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/2/2010 10:57 AM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:N96dncjMqrw2I- @&*$?%speakeasy.net">PRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/1/2010 12:30 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DanielSan wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:a9- @&*$?%speakeasy.net">dnZ3Sc5wQCuPRnZ2dnUVZ_r0AAAAA @&*$?%speakeasy.net:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/1/2010 6:25 AM, Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no power given to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to create or fund a FEDERAL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EDUCATION department
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agency or club or church or PAC or UNION or revue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board or classroom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other FEDERAL government power over education.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and here is the 10th amendment…. it tells you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that if the power isn’t delegated to the Federal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Government, the Federal government doesn’t have that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> power.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Amendment X
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The powers not delegated to the United States by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respectively,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or to the people.]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. There is. It is a power delegated to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Federal
>>>>>>>>>>>> Government
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the Constitution and, therefore, the 10th Amendment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not violated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Care to show the wording in the Constitution that says
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> federal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government has that power? I am curious just where you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I’ve already done it. But I’ll do it once again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Article 1, Section 8:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Congress shall have Power–
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other Powers vested
>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this Constitution in the Government of the United
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States, or in
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Department or Officer thereof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmmmm, see the terms, “…make all laws which shall be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary
>>>>>>>>>> …
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the foregoing powers…” and “..and all other powers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *vested* by
>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution…”. I am asking you to provide a cite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where those powers *vested* in the Consitution show that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they include a Department of Education or federal powers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the taxation for
>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under the federal government.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Article I, section 8 delineates the powers that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> legislative branch has to pass statutes on. I don’t see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> education mentioned either as a specific or as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> derivative. If you do, please
>>>>>>>>>> present
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can’t find any Departments explicitly laid out in the
>>>>>>>>>> Constitution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where is the Department of Labor laid out in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution? Housing and Urban Development? Health and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Human Services? Transportation?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about officer level positions? EPA? US Mission to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the United Nations?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don’t see ANY of these listed explicitly in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, some of them are for powers listed in Article I,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> section 8. Education is not one of them. I am not saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the feds cannot address education. Indeed, there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason for them to do so,
>>>>>>>>>> however
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot find it in the Constitution. You said that it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there so
>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you help me find it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where is the Department of Housing and Urban Development?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don’t care. That isn’t the subject.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope. Your statement was that education is an enumerated power
>>>>>>>>>> specifically delegated to the Feds. My opinion of HUD is juice
>>>>>>>>>> for another discussion. Let’s finish up with education first.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, let’s start with the other departments not specifically
>>>>>>>>> enumerated in the Constitution.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why? You can’t even support your stance on ONE department.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because you refuse to look at the support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For what? Naming departments? I haven’t argued about that. My
>>>>>> argument is a simple one. Show me where education is an
>>>>>> *ENUMERATED* power of the federal government or and *ENUMERATED*
>>>>>> right of the citizenry. It is that simple. Keyword is
>>>>>> “enumerated”. You claimed it was, go for it and show me.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s enumerated in Article 1, Section 8, where it says that the
>>>>> Congress can, with the Executive, create Departments and fund them.
>>>>
>>>> Damn, you are dumb or I poorly worded what I meant. I asked about
>>>> the education portion and you responded again to the part I didn’t
>>>> disagree with. I know that power of naming departments is there, but
>>>> that wasn’t the question. The question was that education were
>>>> education was an enumerated power of the federal government not that
>>>> they couldn’t name or form departments. Did you always have this
>>>> much trouble concentrating on subjects?
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Show support
>>>>>>>> for your stance in how education is an enumerated right and then
>>>>>>>> we can continue. Don’t try to diffuse it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The text string does not appear in the Constitution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that what you want to hear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, you made the claim that education was an enumerated right. I am
>>>>>> asking you to support your statement. I don’t wish to hear any
>>>>>> specific thing, I just wish for you to back up your statement. No
>>>>>> more, no less. Either you can or you can’t.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s implied.
>>>>
>>>> Then it isn’t enumerated.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I say that they’re implied within Articles 1 and 2, just as the
>>>>>>>>> word “gun” is implied by the Second Amendment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The word ‘arms’ is specifally mentioned in the 2A. Arms is a
>>>>>>>> synomym for ‘guns’.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But not all guns are arms. *smile*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Name one that isn’t. Do you need to see the legal definition of
>>>>>> ‘arms’ again?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure. When I worked in a grocery store, I was given a “price gun”
>>>>> to add little stickers to the merchandise.
>>>>
>>>> I can accept that.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> The word education (or a synonym) is not mentioned in either
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> General Welfare clause or the enumerated powers listed in Section
>>>>>>>> 8.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Education is implied in the General Welfare clause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed, it is implied but it is not “enumerated”.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s implied in an enumerated right.
>>>>
>>>> What enumerated right is that? Certainly not the General Welfare
>>>> Clause since that describes powers. Now, the term ‘general welfare’
>>>> is an inclusive term in the preamble to Article I. It is not an
>>>> enumerated power. It is a goal or a general term. To be enumerated
>>>> it must be specifically mentioned as a power granted to Congress.
>>>
>>> Fine. If you don’t believe it’s under the purview of “General
>>> Welfare”, then let’s look at the other portion of Article 1, Section
>>> 8:
>>>
>>> “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
>>> into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by
>>> this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
>>> Department or Officer thereof.”
>>>
>>> The “foregoing Powers” references various things such as roads,
>>> declaration of war, coin money, and such other things. It also
>>> references “general Welfare” but you think that education doesn’t fall
>>> in that container, so let’s leave that alone for now.
>>>
>>> The Congress has the authority to make ALL laws that shall be
>>> necessary and proper for carrying into execution of ALL OTHER POWERS
>>> VESTED IN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OR IN ANY DEPARTMENT OR
>>> OFFICER THEREOF.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yep, two words in particular jump out at me. “Vested” and “Thereof”. I
>> covered them in another response to you.
>
> Guess I’m still missing the thing about education.
>
> Section 8 reads, to me, that the Congress can make all laws which shall
> be necessary and proper for carrying into execution any department or
> officer of the government of the United States.

“To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into
Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this
Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
Department or Officer thereof.”

What foregoing power “of education” is vested there?
BY this constitution or department or Officer?

*It’s NOT a power vested by this constitution*

The constitution doesn’t vest that power in the government of the united
states.

The constitution doesn’t vest that power in any Department.

The constitution doesn’t vest that power in any Officer.

The Congress that creates a department is not “this Constitution”

The newly created department is not in “this constitution”
*THAT WOULD TAKE AN AMENDMENT*

Apparently if it isn’t in the constitution as a power/authority given to
the Federal government then they can’t create a department “To make all
Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the
foregoing Powers” that don’t exist….

They can create it but it is nothing but a name and they can’t fund it
or create any laws for it or by it. It becomes an empty basket.